Texas and Oklahoma leaving Big 12?

[HLB]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:19 PM, utenation said:

Dude…. Learn the word paragraph…. Your babble is so hard to read… 

Anyways, I’m curious where you got your poor attendance numbers for Utah?

 I’m pretty sure Utah is at or above 100% capacity and has been for many years. We just expanded last year and our first game this year had about 51,500 against an FCS foe which is just above 100%.
 

Even with expansion, we still have a waiting list.

Do you mind sharing your special link with special attendance numbers?

Thanks in advance buddy.

 

I'm going back to a couple of years ago, when the discussion on these threads were with regard to attendance, and stadiums not being full.

And last week, a video of a half-empty stadium at the USC/Stanford game was posted.  I was told that the reason stadiums are not full (around the conference) is due to the entertainment dollar.  I was also told that the South doesn't have this problem, which is laughable.

Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Nashville, Charlotte .... All of those cities have multiple professional sports, and loads of entertainment, outside of the professional sports venue, and the stadiums are full on Saturdays.  And that's with most of the stadiums (LSU, BAMA, TN, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, TXA&M, Arkansas, South Carolina) having 90K, or higher, seating capacity.

You're welcome, buddy.

[PAC MAN]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:06 PM, HLB said:

Vanderbilt - one of the worst teams in all of college football - fills their meager 40,000 seat stadium - on a Saturday night -  when other the Predators are playing hockey, ZZ-Top is playing at the Ryman, TPAC has a Broadway production, Keith Urban might be playing a concert, the River-front Amphitheatre might have a band like Train playing, and the Titans are playing the next day ... ALL in one night.  All within blocks of one another.  So the excuse for poor attendance - particularly at schools like Utah, Stanford, Arizona, AZ State, Wazzu, Washington, and Cal - because of the entertainment dollar, is absurd.

You said filling that meager 40K seat stadium...then why did Vandy have conservations with MLS club Nashville SC about moving into their new 30K seat stadium at the state fairgrounds that is opening next spring?  Vandy ultimately decided not to do that but it's obvious that Vandy is in the SEC to hide all the SEC wheelings and dealings within a private college that is not subject to FOIA requests.

And I imagine attendance isn't gong to be so hot for Vandy this season after losing to powerhouse East Tennessee State in the opener.

[utenation]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:32 PM, HLB said:

I'm going back to a couple of years ago, when the discussion on these threads were with regard to attendance, and stadiums not being full.

And last week, a video of a half-empty stadium at the USC/Stanford game was posted.  I was told that the reason stadiums are not full (around the conference) is due to the entertainment dollar.  I was also told that the South doesn't have this problem, which is laughable.

Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Nashville, Charlotte .... All of those cities have multiple professional sports, and loads of entertainment, outside of the professional sports venue, and the stadiums are full on Saturdays.  And that's with most of the stadiums (LSU, BAMA, TN, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, TXA&M, Arkansas, South Carolina) having 90K, or higher, seating capacity.

You're welcome, buddy.

Didn’t you say there was an attendance excuse at schools like Utah?

[utenation]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:10 PM, HLB said:

 But if Quack12 wants to edit my writings, that's his choice -  he's free to do so.

@Quack 12 name your price. I’m 98% sure the entire board would chip in. 

And if we can somehow combo pack it with a bus trip out of here. Gravy. 

[clpp01]

On 9/14/2021 at 9:57 AM, HLB said:

Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Ole Miss, Mississippi State and TXA&M make up the West Division.

Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Misouri, South Carolina and Vanderbilt make up the East Division.

A team plays everyone in their division, plus two from the other division, in a given season.  Because of long lasting rivalries, one crossover game remains a constant and annual contest.  The other crossover rotates among the other teams from the other division.

For example.  Auburn will play each of the West Division teams.  Because of a long standing rivalry with Georgia, Auburn plays Georgia every year, as one of their cross over games.  The second cross over opponent is based on an annual rotation of teams from the other division.  That means Auburn will face Florida, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Missouri or South Carolina every five years.

BAMA's regular crossover opponent is Tennessee, because it's been a long standing rivalry game dating back to the 50's.  They play Florida, Kentucky, Vandy, Georgia, South Carolina or Missouri once every five years.

LSU's regular seasonal crossover is Florida.  Mississippi State's regular crossover is Kentucky.  Vandy's regular crossover is Ole Miss.  Arkansas's regular crossover is TXA&M.  Missouri's regular seasonal crossover is South Carolina.

These regular crossover games were established to satisfy the fans who want to see the long-standing rivalry games continue on an annual basis, and not once every 6 years.

This year BAMA will play Tennessee and Florida, as their crossover games.

What this system also allows, is for the top two teams from each division meeting in the SEC Championship game, without having already played one another.  If BAMA gets to the SEC Championship game, as does UGA, then you will see BAMA face UGA.  At the end of the day, the best of each division will ultimately face off, which counters the ideology that they are "skipping" someone, by not playing during the regular season.

Yes I know the SEC has divisions and cross protected rivalries but thank you.  I also know that because the SEC only plays an 8 game schedule it means that for those 6 schools that aren't your protected rivalry it take 12 years to play a home and home with everyone in the conference see how it is 2021 and Texas AM has been in the SEC for 10 years and has only played conference mate Georgia once.

 Everything about the SEC schedule is manipulated to protect the powers from finding themselves on each other's schedule as frequently as possible to the 4 non conference games where you play one good team and 3 scrubs for the vast majority of the time or how teams always seem to have their bye week right before a big game or how half the conference plays a school most people in the country didn't know even existed in late November.

Quote

 

As I said before, every SEC teams plays one FCS opponent, every year.  That is exactly 25% of their 56 OOC opponents.  This is done to satisfy the request of those schools who rely on the money from these games to sustain their "entire" athletic department (basketball, tennis, baseball, golf, etc.).

I'm well aware that USC and UCLA never schedule FCS opponents, and that Stanford only does so on an occasional basis.  However, of the 36 OOC games played by the PAC12, nine are against FCS opponents, which accounts for ... 25% of the OOC opponents.

 

The SEC isn't and never has dictated its decision based any way on what smaller conferences are reliant upon.  They are capping out the FCS allotment because it is the cheapest way to pad their records.

As for the 25% sample size, over a 10 year period we have seen what the Pac-12 has scheduled FCS and if you want to look back beyond that its more of the same.

Quote

USC and UCLA, however, don't always schedule two P5 OOC opponents.  Georgia, South Carolina and Florida almost always play two P5 OOC opponents.  LSU and Kentucky do occasionally.  Florida hasn't traveled outside the state for P5 opponents very often, because they have been mandated to play FSU (and visa versa), and for many years played Miami, too.  UCF, USF, FAU and FIU are always tugging on their shirts for a matchup - so there's a lot of in-state demands that keep them from being able to step outside of the state, let alone outside the SE U.S.

Going back to 2006 when the NCAA expanded the regular season to 12 games and the Pac10/SEC split on the 9 conference game vs 4 non conference game philosophy Florida rarely plays 2 P5 schools in their non conference they have done so 4 times since 2006, Florida has played a total of 19 P5 schools since 2006 which would be 3rd most in the SEC behind Georgia and South Carolina in the P12 that would drop down to 7th, USC for example has played 33 in the same time frame.

Quote

SEC plays USF and Memphis, this year.  They have played Boise State (3) and UCF (5 times), since 2010.  The G5 conferences in the PAC12 footprint is the MWC.  In the SEC footprint, there is the American Conference, Conf-USA, and the Sunbelt, with the MAC close by.  That means SEC teams have 50 G5 programs in their footprint, wanting to play SEC teams.  The PAC12 has 12 such teams.  The SEC can't play everyone, every year; nor will they play the same G5 opponents, every year.

There is nothing stopping the SEC from playing MWC and AAC caliber G5 schools but they continue to schedule the fcs schools that are masquerading as G5 programs within the lowest levels of the G5.

 

Quote

Either way, it's not because the PAC12 is trying to be more manly (as so many want to claim).  What has always puzzled me is this:  Because the PAC12 "chooses" to play 9 conference games, then that means everyone else should have to play 9 conference games?  If the PAC12 plays 2 FCS opponents each, does that mean all other P5 teams should also play two FCS opponents?

The question should be why doesn't the SEC want to play 9 conference games?  I thought it just means more in the south?  Why settle for watching Ole Miss curb stomping South Alabama or South Carolina destroying Middle Tennessee State when there could be a more competitive SEC game instead?

[PAC MAN]

Has there been any mention about the recent Big 12 expansion with BYU, Cincy, Houston, and UCF?  I think the Big 12 has a chance to keep its P5 status after all.

[EastCoastFan]

On 9/14/2021 at 7:06 PM, HLB said:

I had that backwards. 

That statment describes so much.  So very much.  But it's missing the obvious elephant in the room.  Why exactly are you here?  Every poster I have read on this board is here because of an abiding love for a Pac-12 school, or for the conference as a whole.  There's a feeling here that you can combine athletics with academics, the real spirit of college sports.  We're proud of every part of our universities.  Somehow, when you look up, say Alabama, it makes you wonder on the "college" side of things.  I guess for some, a rating of somewhere between 800th and 1,000th in the most respected college rating list might make one wonder, who exactly is rated lower?

Link:  https://www.topuniversities.com/universities/university-alabama

It's likely you're here to irritate, not here out of love or respect for the great institutions of the west.  That's fine.  It makes you wonder, though, if perhaps for the last 19 years living in Birmingham your application to attend Bevill State Community College in Jasper has been rudely rejected, and you're taking your frustrations out on serious people seriously discissing serious schools located in serious places.  I don't know your politics, but it's likely your red hat has nothing to do with 'Bama.

[EastCoastFan]

On 9/14/2021 at 8:01 PM, Jalapeno said:

Has there been any mention about the recent Big 12 expansion with BYU, Cincy, Houston, and UCF?  I think the Big 12 has a chance to keep its P5 status after all.

It's been reported that the ACC, Pac-12, and B1G want the Big-12 to keep their P5 status.  The Big-12 now will be an interesting collection of schools, some decent football programs, but not the "name" bluebloods that the media mavens love.  As for basketball, the conference looks like they've improved themselves.  Cincy, Houston, and BYU have serious programs that know their way around the NCAA tourney.  I think we should all root for that re-configured league, although one wonders if there will be more waves of reallignment, with whispers about USC, and back-room talk about how a few ACC teams could break their GOR agreements.

[utenation]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:56 PM, EastCoastFan said:

That statment describes so much.  So very much.  But it's missing the obvious elephant in the room.  Why exactly are you here?  Every poster I have read on this board is here because of an abiding love for a Pac-12 school, or for the conference as a whole.  There's a feeling here that you can combine athletics with academics, the real spirit of college sports.  We're proud of every part of our universities.  Somehow, when you look up, say Alabama, it makes you wonder on the "college" side of things.  I guess for some, a rating of somewhere between 800th and 1,000th in the most respected college rating list might make one wonder, who exactly is rated lower?

Link:  https://www.topuniversities.com/universities/university-alabama

It's likely you're here to irritate, not here out of love or respect for the great institutions of the west.  That's fine.  It makes you wonder, though, if perhaps for the last 19 years living in Birmingham your application to attend Bevill State Community College in Jasper has been rudely rejected, and you're taking your frustrations out on serious people seriously discissing serious schools located in serious places.  I don't know your politics, but it's likely your red hat has nothing to do with 'Bama.

He doesn’t even know who plays in the P12 or SEC.. So academics, sports and such don’t matter. 
 

I bet he doesn’t even have a GED.

[azgreg]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:35 PM, utenation said:

He doesn’t even know who plays in the P12 or SEC.. So academics, sports and such don’t matter. 
 

I bet he doesn’t even have a GED.

It's unlikely he can spell it either.

 

[utenation]

On 9/14/2021 at 7:44 PM, azgreg said:

It's unlikely he can spell it either.

 

 

[Quack 12]

Personally, I love it when we get a "know-it-all" critic visiting this board. And remember, this is all research for the upcoming HLB book, or should I say "writings."🤣

Where to start.

Vandy does NOT regularly fill its stadium, which apparently is a dump. They averaged 30K or less in the three seasons preceding the pandemic, and that includes visiting fans, some of whom (notably Tennessee and LSU) "take over" the stadium. They played a game in front of 839 people last year, even in the COVID-denying south! Oregon averages 104% capacity at "meager" Autzen.

On 9/14/2021 at 4:26 PM, HLB said:

I have a former roommate who is an AD at an FCS school.  He will tell you that without playing P5 opponents, and receiving that $1M, or greater pay out, funds their athletic budget for the year.  Without that income, their athletic department would cease to exist.

Ahh, the altruistic SEC, always looking out for the little guy. Let's not forget that the home team (the SEC team) in these November body bag games stands to bring in 2 to 3 million for what is essentially a BYE week. 

If I'm not mistaken, the SEC and ACC are the only P5 leagues that play four OOC games (besides the Hawaii exception). Oregon has played a P5 school is the first or second week in seven of the past nine seasons (it would have been eight of nine except for 2020), so the SEC hardly stands alone in scheduling tough games early. Early conference games happen elsewhere too (USC/Stanford last week), so no, that reasoning doesn't hold water. Look, I don't blame them for scheduling a take-the-week-off cupcake in November. It's smart. The students are all on campus, and things are a little slow pre-Thanksgiving. They get a good crowd and an easy win. It would just be nice if they admitted that it gives them a decided advantage.

And BTW, Oregon is 3-0 below the Mason-Dixon line in this century, and Florida hasn't played a regular season game outside the south for the past 30 years.

 

[Orange]

On 9/14/2021 at 4:06 PM, HLB said:

 Vanderbilt - one of the worst teams in all of college football - fills their meager 40,000 seat stadium - on a Saturday night -  when other the Predators are playing hockey, ZZ-Top is playing at the Ryman, TPAC has a Broadway production, Keith Urban might be playing a concert, the River-front Amphitheatre might have a band like Train playing, and the Titans are playing the next day ... ALL in one night. 

You're not gonna believe this, guys, but HLB is full of shit again!

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/vanderbilt-football/home-attendance-wrap-vanderbilt/

Still, the team’s struggles brought little fanfare as the Commodores finished last in the SEC in attendance. Vanderbilt averaged 34,258 fans per game and had a total of 274,063 for the 2014 season.

 

Also, LOL @ thinking Keith Urban and ZZ-top are draws.  Portland, San Fran, and LA call that a wednesday afternoon.  Hell, Bend Oregon gets Dave Mathews Band and Modest Mouse.

[Orange]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:27 PM, HLB said:

As for the PAC12 .... Twelve teams, as of 2010.  Arizona, AZ State, California, Colorado, USC, UCLA, Washington, Washington State, Utah Stanford, Oregon and Oregon State.

How did I do?

Terribly, dipshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pacific-10_Conference_football_season

2010 Pacific-10 Conference football standings
v t e	Conf							Overall
Team		W		L					W		L
No. 3 Oregon $		9	–	0					12	–	1
No. 4 Stanford  %		8	–	1					12	–	1
USC †		5	–	4					8	–	5
Washington		5	–	4					7	–	6
Arizona		4	–	5					7	–	6
Arizona State		4	–	5					6	–	6
Oregon State		4	–	5					5	–	7
California		3	–	6					5	–	7
UCLA		2	–	7					4	–	8
Washington State		1	–	8					2	–	10

 

[Orange]

On 9/14/2021 at 4:32 PM, HLB said:

I'm going back to a couple of years ago, when the discussion on these threads were with regard to attendance, and stadiums not being full.

And last week, a video of a half-empty stadium at the USC/Stanford game was posted.  I was told that the reason stadiums are not full (around the conference) is due to the entertainment dollar.  I was also told that the South doesn't have this problem, which is laughable.

Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Nashville, Charlotte .... All of those cities have multiple professional sports, and loads of entertainment, outside of the professional sports venue, and the stadiums are full on Saturdays.  And that's with most of the stadiums (LSU, BAMA, TN, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, TXA&M, Arkansas, South Carolina) having 90K, or higher, seating capacity.

You're welcome, buddy.

There are no SEC teams in Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta, New Orleans or Charlotte.

None.

You have one town that's REMOTELY comparable to a west-coast city in terms of entertainment and that has an SEC school in town.  That's Nashville.  And Vandy can't seem to draw more than about 70% each game.

[utenation]

On 9/15/2021 at 10:30 AM, Quack 12 said:

And remember, this is all research for the upcoming HLB book, or should I say "writings."🤣

 

 

[Quack 12]

On 9/14/2021 at 4:07 PM, HLB said:

I wrote something earlier, that was being referenced.  You can look for it.

Uh, no. Your contributions start on page 8. Not a word about the Big XII.

On 9/14/2021 at 4:26 PM, HLB said:

But fans didn't like having two weeks between games, so they scheduled lightweight opponents, to have a game for the fans, but without running the risk of injuring key players before the rivalry game.  They typically play reserves in these games, and have done so since the 70's.  This isn't something they started doing when the BCS came into fruition, or when the playoffs came to be.  Doesn't everyone in Oregon already know this? 

Wrong again. The SEC started this BS when the NCAA went to a 12-game schedule in 2006. In the 70s and 80s, the SEC played only six conference game per year, but they typically didn't schedule Directional A&T in November. And dude, every SEC team has a BYE week every year anyway, despite playing Bishop Sycamore in November. You're ridiculous.

[HLB]

On 9/15/2021 at 2:48 PM, Quack 12 said:

Uh, no. Your contributions start on page 8. Not a word about the Big XII.

Wrong again. The SEC started this BS when the NCAA went to a 12-game schedule in 2006. In the 70s and 80s, the SEC played only six conference game per year, but they typically didn't schedule Directional A&T in November. And dude, every SEC team has a BYE week every year anyway, despite playing Bishop Sycamore in November. You're ridiculous.

Earth to you:  I grew up in SEC country.  I lived in B'ham, Alabama from 1979-1999.  You weren't there.  I was.

SEC teams typically took a by week before their rivalry game - particularly BAMA/Auburn, Ole Miss/Mississippi State, Florida (before FSU), and so forth.

Look up BAMA's scheduling.  For decades they had an "open" week, prior to playing Auburn.  In the late 90's, early 2000's, they scheduled games the week before, and no one liked the result, because players were banged up, etc. heading into their rivalry game.

The fans didn't like having two weeks between games.  So to appease fans, they started scheduling teams such as UT-Chattanooga, Cincinnati, Louisiana-Monroe, etc.

Schools gave way to the fans, and began scheduling easier teams on the week before the rivalry game, which allowed them to rest most of their starters, play a lot of back-up players, satisfy the fans, and allow their starters to heal up before their rivalry game.

ALL THAT BEING SAID, if the SEC scheduled the way "you" want them to schedule (whatever that may be), they would still have had the same success that they have had for so many years.  The arguments about a 9-game conference schedule, late season lower-level opponents in week 3 of November, etc. are nothing more than a myth.  SEC teams typically play stronger teams beginning in week one, when other conferences are playing lower-level programs and climbing the rankings.

As an example, in 2014, Georgia opened with Clemson, then played South Carolina, in week-two - a game in which they lost.  Weeks later they lost to Florida by 2-points.  This gave them two losses, in the later third of the season, and they dropped out of the Top-10.  The week prior to rivalry week, they played a no-body (as you described).  IF Georgia had played that "no-body" in week two (as most conferences do), then the Florida loss would have been their first loss; and by the third week in November they would have been playing South Carolina, and ranked in the Top-5.  And in that year, South Carolina's season went south.  Because of injuries, etc., they were not as strong in week 12, as they were in week two.  Georgia, on the other hand, improved great deal.  They would have probably beaten S. Carolina, finished the regular season with one loss, ranked in the Top-3 and played for the SEC Championship.

In short, scheduling as you think SEC teams should schedule, would have helped Georgia.

Here's my question:  Rather than complain about the SEC's scheduling, schedule the same way that SEC teams do.  The PAC12 can play 8 conference games, if they think that's an advantage - but they won't, for reasons I've already covered.  The cross-country travel is too much on the players and budget.  And rather than schedule another MWC or Big Sky opponent, they decided to play another conference game.

The whole world isn't required to do as the PAC12 decides to do.  And just because the PAC12 decides to play 9 conference games doesn't mean everyone else should have to, as well.

[HLB]

On 9/15/2021 at 12:12 PM, Orange said:

Terribly, dipshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pacific-10_Conference_football_season

2010 Pacific-10 Conference football standings
v t e	Conf							Overall
Team		W		L					W		L
No. 3 Oregon $		9	–	0					12	–	1
No. 4 Stanford  %		8	–	1					12	–	1
USC †		5	–	4					8	–	5
Washington		5	–	4					7	–	6
Arizona		4	–	5					7	–	6
Arizona State		4	–	5					6	–	6
Oregon State		4	–	5					5	–	7
California		3	–	6					5	–	7
UCLA		2	–	7					4	–	8
Washington State		1	–	8					2	–	10

 

From your link:

"In early June 2010, there were reports that the Pac-10 was considering adding up to six teams to the conference: the University of Texas, Texas A&M University, Texas Tech University, the University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, and the University of Colorado.^[87]

On June 10, 2010, the University of Colorado Boulder officially accepted an invitation to join the Pac-10 Conference, effective starting with the 2012–2013 academic year.^[88][89] The school later announced it would join the conference a year earlier than previously announced, in the 2011–2012 academic year.

On June 15, 2010, a deal was reached between Texas and the Big 12 Conference to keep Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State in the Big 12. Following Texas' decision, the other Big 12 schools that had been rumored candidates to join the Pac-10 announced they would remain in the Big 12. This deal effectively ended the Pac-10's ambition to potentially become a sixteen-team conference.^[90]

On June 17, 2010, the University of Utah officially accepted an invitation to join the Pac-10 Conference, effective starting July 2011.^[88] Utah was a member of the Western Athletic Conference (WAC) with Arizona and Arizona State before those two left for the Pac-10 in 1978. The Utes left an expanded WAC with seven other schools in 1999 to form the new Mountain West Conference. Utah became the first "BCS Buster" to join a BCS conference, having played in (and won) two BCS games beforehand.

On July 27, 2010, the conference unveiled a new logo and announced that the Pac-10 would be renamed the Pac-12 when Utah and Colorado formally joined in July 2011. On October 21, the Pac-12 announced that its football competition would be split into two divisions—a North Division comprising the Pacific Northwest and Bay Area schools, and a South Division ...."

(1) As I stated before (and as confirmed in this link), the PAC12 tried to add Texas and Oklahoma, in 2010.  No one balked then.  But now that the SEC has added those two schools, the PAC12, B1G and ACC are all acting like this is "unfair", even though each of those conferences tried to add those two schools, on multiple occasions.

(2) Colorado and Utah joined in 2010 (as I said).  However, they didn't start playing until 2011.  I thought they started playing in 2010.  Small irrelevant error.

[utenation]

@HLB,

Consider this an early birthday gift.  I went ahead and rented Daniel Dale's fact checking service for you for the 2021 season. He wasn't cheap and he's the best in the business. 

From now on, before you can hit submit to a post, the post automatically goes to Daniel for review. He promised a 20 min maximum turn time. You're also limited to 200 word posts from now on. 

Consider this a win/win for the board.